early bedtime

[äirly]

Anyone else find they have to race their hunger to bed? Miss the crucial point, and its off to bed with a rumbling stomach, or pigging out with the fridge door open.

Yep I missed it tonight. Sigh.

[Blitz]

A "rumblily tummy" (to quote Pooh) at bed time when I was losing weight always gave me a smug feeling. I knew that it was very likely that I would have a good loss at weigh in next morning specially after a good night's sleep.

I always kept it in my head that I had no business opening the fridge door after dinner. By drawing the line in the sand there, I knew the battle was about approaching the fridge (and compromising my integrity there) rather than having the mind battle with the fridge door open and various foods beckoning me to shipwreck myself on the rocks of failure with their alluring siren call.

Kim

[Tams]

Yep, early bedtimes are really good!

In my case, it also can control the 'I want...' rather than real hunger. Get thyself to bed girl, and you won't have to battle the 'I wants' is my motto (which does get forgotten!). If I actually get to the hunger stage then I have to address it, or it will trigger a pain episode for me around 3am (because I have a chronic pain condition amongst other ailments)...but a big glass of milk does the trick, is nice and healthy, helps fat loss (particularly around the middle) and ALSO helps sleep. All good.

The added bonus of early bedtimes is that you get more sleep, and that is key to weightloss and weight control. Not enough sleep, and you won't lose as much fat.

[JP1]

Not enough sleep, and you won't lose as much fat.

Yeah it's funny how that works, must be a chemical formula to it but it doesn't make much sense otherwise especially if you've been active during that time awake.. All other things being equal..

I don't eat after dinner time FULL STOP, sometimes l have a coffee or more likely drink water..

[äirly]

I don't eat after dinner time FULL STOP, sometimes l have a coffee or more likely drink water..

This is good if you can stick to it! So many empty calories in late night snack food - I'm especially weak to chocolate...

[Blitz]

JP is right on the money here. Late night eating is the worst time to indulge...that is why a good breakfast is so important - get that right and the daily hunger is in control.

Draw the line in the sand. Battle not with the fridge door open...fight the good fight by setting a standard for yourself. Once dinner is finished that is the last of the food until morning. Moving towards the fridge then becomes the first act of aggression in this war on weight...not the front line!

Kim

[ganymede]

I try to have a cup of tea just to curb any need for scouring the pantry for snacks I've always enjoyed going to bed early and it definitely helps me not to reach for something else after dinner. All these little things we forget over time, I had forgotten that going to be just that bit hungry was a good thing and great for the scales too!

Had got in the habit of having dinner then having a low fat yoghurt before bed which is not a good idea! Will have to nip that habit in the bud and see where it lands me on the scales!

[Tams]

Low fat yoghurt before bed was not a good idea? How did it affect you?

I know health and fitness people who think the late eating thing (in terms of weight) is a load of bunkum...it's about WHAT you eat, and your TOTAL calorie intake. So, if you are very active, and hungry at night, it makes perfect sense to have a healthy snack. And if the low fat yoghurt is natural (not laden with sugars or artificial sugars - remember artificial sugars stimulate the body to take in more calories), then the dairy serve will aid weight loss, plus help you sleep well. That's my take on it anyway (But of course, everyone has to understand their own body.)

[Blitz]

The problem isn't what type of food to have before bedtime...the problem is the timing of the food. If the body has a ready supply of energy available it will draw on that supply first rather than go to where the weight loser wants it to go for that energy (fat reserves). That is why feeling a little hunger when you go to bed is a good sign for weight losers - they know the body has a deficit and that it needs to draw from it's reserves...and that means a good loss.

Kim

[Tams]

Hmm, I don't know if I agree with your there Blitz. But I suppose it is a personal thing and coloured by my experiences - real hunger at bed time is not good, and means broken sleep; for me it can also mean a pain episode, and then I'm up and HAVE to eat so I can take meds, plus I'm wrecked for the next day. But even for 'normal' people, if you don't sleep well, then you sabotage your weightloss. You don't suddenly stop burning fuel when you are asleep, so I'm in the camp of a GOOD snack within your calorie allowance is beneficial at/near/before bedtime. You'll still be using your 'stored fuel' across 24hrs if your total calories are slightly deficit to your needs.

[Blitz]

You may disagree with me all you like but the weight of scientific evidence is with me on this point.

A University of Minnesota study (cited by Cooper, Flip the Switch p.143) where all participants followed a 2,000-calorie-a day showed those who consumed most of their calories early in the day lost weight (2.3 pounds per week on average), while those who ate later gained weight.

Throw Out Your Scales by Andrew Cate has a section titled "Strategy 10 Change When You Eat - Eat Less at Night". In this section are two panels labelled "Science Says" in them he cites research showing "...that obese people are more likely to consume food later in the day. While obese women were just as likely as non-obese women to eat breakfast, they consumed more meals in the evening or night. Night eaters find it harder to lose weight and may experience reduced daytime hunger." and "...comparing identical diets found that those who ate more during the day lost 40 per cent more weight over a month than those who ate more at night."

Dr Robert Harris in his book Slim Forever also concurs and gives some of the science behind it. Also he strongly recommends that people should eat dinner between the hours of 6pm and 8pm.

In Bob Greene's book; Total Body Make Over, he has a section titled "The Five Simple Eating Rules". Rule number one is "Have an eating cutoff time". In it he writes; "Although this rule is about not eating, it actually sets you up for a healthier pattern of eating. When you go to bed a little hunger, you'll also wake up hungry, and that means that you'll eat breakfast...That, in turn, will maximize your calorie burning all day long. If on contrary, you eat right before you go to bed, hardly any of your food will be digested (digestion all but shuts down during sleep) and you won't eat for hours beyond the time you wake up." He also provides three other reasons why this should be followed (thermic reaction doesn't have time to work this food, doesn't give you a chance to burn some of those calories off and increases risk of various ailments and diseases, including cancers). In his book that he co-authored with Oprah Winfrey, Make The Connection Ten Steps to a Better Body - and a Better Life, his Step Seven is "Stop Eating Two to Three Hours Before Bedtime" and devotes four pages to the preposition.

For the practical, Barbara Wimhurst (who lost 45kg...and has kept it off) writes near the end of her book, The Do-Able Diet, "Stop eating at least three hours before you go to bed. You will burn kilojoules while you sleep." Also Silvestro Musoumeci (lost 70kg) in his book, If I Can, You Can! writes; "Introduce a cut-off time: If we overeat in the evenings, it's easier for any excess food to store as fat because our metabolism is slowing down and we're not burning the same amount of energy we are during the day. My cut off time was 7:30pm. But this may not suit you, as we all have different working hours, so set your time around two hours before you normally go to bed."

I could cite other books...but I think that you get the idea.

As for real hunger, I must admit to being a bit sceptical about the claim. Many of us overweight people make such claims but how real are they? I don't think we have a proper understanding of it. To be really hungry - starving - isn't something that many people in Australia truly experience. My parents were both children in during World War 2 when Germany occupied the Dutch. The Germans took all the food and the population had to fend for itself. One Christmas her uncle managed to produce a skinned rabbit for an unheard of family feast. It was only years later that he confessed that it was a cat. Things got so bad that my grandmother, my mum (then 7yrs), my aunt (4yrs old but so weak that she couldn't walk) in a pram and her cousin (parents in a concentration camp) went to the countryside to beg food from farmers. One farmer sold a pot with the crusted remains of a meal that had been reheated many times for my grandmother's gold wedding ring and a blanket - and they were thankful for it! A soup was made for the population from tulip bulbs and given out. My mum said that it tasted really horrible but that they had to have it just to have something in the belly. Apparently, it left the bowels and bladder very quickly...but it was all there was. My mother said that sleep was encouraged because that was the only relief from the real hunger pains. We have no idea.

Kim

[JP1]

I don't eat after my evening meal which l eat pretty early - around 4.30/5pm and no later than 6pm.. I have the ocassional cup of coffee but thats it to breakfast circa 6.30am on work days and circa 9am on weekends.. Can honestly say I've rarely felt hungry, l must have just got use to those timings!

[Tams]

Most of those books are about the psychology of weightloss and establishing habits for the highly overweight or obese person. For which I think that 'rule' is really helpful. The 'rule' is also talking more about the amount consumed after a certain time - a healthy snack to promote good sleep is NOT a vast amount or a meal. Hence we are not really talking about the biology of the 'rule' as it is focused more on habits (psychology) of certain people, and clouded by the issue of amount and type of snack. There are just as many scientific articles and books that support the contention that a snack, if hungry, is certainly a healthful thing to do before bed (and we all want to promote health first, rather than weightloss over health). Also I wonder about the publication dates as this 'rule' is only lately being challenged. Anyway, all this is why I think this has to come with personal evaluation - if it is helpful, follow the rule. If it is NOT helpful, then you are not doing anything harmful, or harmful to weightloss, by having a small snack that is both weightloss promoting and sleep promoting before bed (dairy for instance).

As to real hunger...yep, I've felt it. There are MANY people in the first world who have felt it (homeless, illegal, unemployed, abused etc). Real hunger doesnt have to mean starvation at the point of many months into the starvation (and i do get cross that many people think first worlders can't feel grinding poverty and hunger - it's real, be glad you are not in that circumstance...hmm, Mr Abbott!!).

And when we talk about the biology of our bodies, most of us have experienced true hunger - the signal that says we need food (you don't have to be starving!). Perhaps it is useful to make the distinction between hunger and need. 'Even' an overweight or obese person genuinely feels hunger. There is more research coming out now that says it is far more complex for obese people as the hunger hormones are not responsive to the satiety hormones. This is REAL hunger. But it is not logical or calculated need. For these people (and no, it is not everyone, it can't be used as an excuse, but it should be recognised that it is a real experience for some), weightloss and maintenance is a constant calculation about need, and a constant refutation to the sensations they are feeling.

One very interesting thing that I heard a month or so back, and may feed into the eating at night thing only because if you go to bed earlier, you are less likely to need a later snack, and more likely to wake up early....is that those who get early morning sunlight exposure are far skinnier than later sunlight exposed people - regardless of what they ate!!

Sounds like I'm stuffed anyway - my job and my sport are both late night things that promote real hunger and the need to sleep in, lol!!

[Blitz]

All of these books are dealing with the WHOLE issue of weight loss not just the psychology. My quotes however were NOT about the psychology of eating at night (I could have quoted them and others on that issue but did not) but the scientific and biological base for not eating just before bed.

I was addressing the issue of hunger (real) and not appetite (psychological). In Dr Garry Egger and Dr Andrew Binns' book, The Experts' Weight Loss Guide (a book written by doctors for doctors and other health professionals) they define the two as "There is an often-overlooked distinction between 'hunger' and 'appetite'. Hunger is the biological need to find food and eat food in response to internal signals. Appetite is the psychological desire or want for food or drink which may be learned through conditioning and/or early experience."

Only Bob Greene referred to it as a "rule" and to be fair on him his intention is that it is his advice for those who what to lose weight. Andrew Cate refers to it as a strategy and the others offer it as expert scientific advice or practical advice (such as Wimhurst and Musoumeci who have done what others seek to do). The thing about advice is that anyone is free to accept it or reject it but they do so with the implied consequences of ignoring good advice.

A "good healthy snack" may be without dire consequence for normal weighted people but this is not what this Forum is about. This is the place for dealing with being highly overweight, obese and super-obese (which was MY category!). We here are trying to squeeze the maximum benefits that we can. Snacking late at night isn't one of them.

I still think that you have no idea about real hunger. Interesting, most overweight people share this belief with you. You have never experienced 'starve as to death' hunger. Those on the weight loss journey discover that their "real hunger" pangs aren't as bad as they imagined them to be and are very manageable. They learn to distinguish between hunger and appetite.

My father was an alcoholic and there were times when I was growing up when money was in sort supply. My mother made sure us four kids never went without. Even if it meant she missed an occasional meal. Nevertheless she would never compare that experience as approaching anywhere near her wartime experiences. Why?...because in Australia there are always options. There is always some sort of help somewhere - whether that be government or private means. There is a world of difference living on the streets of a major city in Australia or one in Pakistan for example. There a boy on the streets after not being able to eat for two or three days finds himself caught in child prostitution. Some friends of mine decided to go onto the streets in the 80's. One of the girls was recognised by a friend of her mother's when at a food kitchen. That friend berated her mother (a leading feminist in this state) for allowing her daughter on the street. Her mother pointed out that her daughter was free to come home any time she wanted and that was her choice to be there (living in squats and with druggies) - and that she knew the "system" well enough so as to survive (both government and private). After two years of that lifestyle she got herself together, did further education and is now happy married and a high school teacher.

No matter how you may feel about the colour of a particular current government of Australia even at it's worst...living in Australia still is much better than many places in the world. What governments don't provide (federal, state and local), others fill in the gaps. For example, many churches provide food and material help for those who don't have food. Real hunger in Australia is optional (there is help for them) but for many countries around the world that is not the case. Truly we are a lucky country.

Experience in the end is the real teacher in all this. I was super-obese. I weighed in at 153.7kg at the beginning of this journey. I tell you categorically what I had experienced was "appetite" not "hunger". At the beginning of my journey going without food for half an hour seemed like I was starving to death...but that was ignorance talking. I learnt the truth down the track...this is a journey about confronting reality. I got real.

You are not stuffed. My job entails working up a sweat when others are eating (and feasting at that!) and I often work late at night. You learn to manage a healthy lifestyle in the midst of your life. I have...so can you.

Kim

[DD Diva]

I completely agree with you Kim.

I won't go into too much detail as I think this argument has gotten out of hand, but I will say this. I have worked with international scientists who conducted extensive research and have found that skipping a meal over short prolonged periods of time (fasting) is not detrimental to your health, in fact, it brings with it major physical, mental and physiological benefits. One (of the many) groups researchers investigated was the Muslim community and their practice of Ramadan, basing their hypothesis on the belief that once this fasting period ended participants would regain any weight lost during the 30 days of fasting days, only to discover that the opposite occurred, i.e. absolutely NO WEIGHT WAS GAINED by any and that each participant actually had a substantial loss!!!

I do not advocate fasting as a "starve to death" practice that people should adopt but I do believe (in fact I know personally) that controlled eating (and EARLY, that is nothing after say 7pm) along with the usual "move it and you'll lose it" physical mix has major benefits for the mind, body and soul.

The justification that you should give into your body every time there is even the slightest inkling that you're hungry is a recipe for obesity! The brain doesn't always transmit the correct signal and what it mistakenly interprets as hunger is often in fact the body's way of declaring dehydration. This is not a myth, it is a scientifically proven fact.