early bedtime

[Tams]

Hmm, nope, I still think there is more of a distinction here..

1. appetite (yep, thats a good way of talking about the psychological stimulus)
2. hunger (it IS biological - we have both hunger and satiety hormones. Sure, sometimes they don't work properly, but you can't say 'it's just in your head', because it is in the hormones and nerve receptors)
3. need...this would define the maths of calories in/out...and the overall effect of 'starvation', at whatever month that is.

And yes, fasting is reported as doing a world of good, agreed. But not nil for days and days - most fasters do consume something each day. As for ramadan...don't they eat after sundown?? So how does that fit in with not eating late at night?

I was thinking of this thread last night actually, with some irony. I ate dinner at 5.45, went to work (taught dance for 3 hrs), came home and had more of the snack than I'd planned, went to bed 2 hrs later and had those hunger pangs you speak of as indicative of a good loss...even though I had my snack!! Of course then it all went downhill. Awake at 3am with hunger pain. Ignored it. Awake at 5am to cat spew (which I stepped in as I leapt out of bed!). Then lay awake until 7am with hunger pain I couldn't ignore - I gave in at 7 and had a glass of milk, then finally got another 3 hours sleep! At least my body didn't decide to go into sickness mode. Did I get the 'loss' of hunger pains at bedtime (despite my snack)? Woohoo, yes...400g.

Oh, and is this forum not also for those who have 'less than 10kg' to go, and those on 'maintenance'? Don't disclude us!

[DD Diva]

Hmm, nope, I still think there is more of a distinction here..

And yes, fasting is reported as doing a world of good, agreed. But not nil for days and days - most fasters do consume something each day. As for ramadan...don't they eat after sundown?? So how does that fit in with not eating late at night?
At no point was I saying that fasting should be or is "nil for days and days" but rather even during Ramadan when Muslims eat after sundown it is the month long fast which involves prolonged periods of not eating at all (ie. during the day) that has benefits AND when they do eat (yes, in the evening) it does not result an increase in weight. The difference here, or to quote your words the "distinction" is that they fast almost ALL DAY and eat only once, unlike what those who will argue without anything concrete to substantiate the benefit of eating late at night!!! Your argument that it's ok to feed your hunger at night would be plausible if you fasted all day and only ate the one meal (at night) but it doesn't sound like that's what you're doing, hence your theory falls down!

[DD Diva]

Oh and I omitted to add, yes of course this forum is about (and for) people with less than 10kg to lose or on maintenance, no one is discarding you but you may want to go easy on giving in to your nocturnal activities like your 3am trips to the fridge cause you to no longer fit into either of those groups!

[Blitz]

There are many people on this Forum who have less than ten kilos to lose. Heck I'm the most extreme example...I have NONE to lose and in my signature I proclaim that I'm now maintaining for life.

All people's opinions are equal on the net - to be accepted or rejected as other people see fit. It can be frustrating sometimes though. For example, on magic forums you will often come across someone who waxes lyrical about how to perform on stage for hundreds whilst he discounts and rubbishes the sage advice of a known respected (and experienced) magician contribution to the thread. It is only later that you learn that he is a 14 year old kid who learnt all his magic off the internet, has done the local boy scouts for the princely sum of $50 (thus earning him "professional" status) and is in a blind panic because the PTA has asked him to perform at the end of the year concert for free and he doesn't know what tricks to do! You may laugh...but the example I have provided - actually happened!

I live in a suburb that has a mosque in it. There are a lot of Muslims living here. My former neighbour across from me was a Muslim. I could always tell when Ramadan was by crowds feasting at his place just after the sun went down (not late at night - and not less than two hours or so before bedtime that we are talking about). Judging by the wonderful smells wafting from his place...I'm sure that his family and guests managed to consume their daily quota of calories without drama.

If you can't survive the night without eating may I suggest that you are not consuming a proper daily calorie amount for your needs. On very active days you should increase your daily calorie allowance (and on inactive days - adjust your calorie intake accordingly) so that the body is provided with the required energy. This is specially true for those that don't carry any excessive extra weight...you can't draw from the well if the well is empty. I think much of your stomach problems can be helped by eating more solid meals earlier in the day and giving your stomach a chance to "settle" for the night. The experts also suggest that as another reason for not eating 2 or 3 hours before bedtime. Rather than rejecting this sage advice may be you should try it and see if it will help you.

Kim

[Tams]

Sigh, common guys! You are starting to get quite heated and we shouldn't be arguing - this is a discussion. In your heatedness, you forget my points:

1. A healthy snack, WITHIN your daily calorie allowance (not blowing it, not raiding the fridge, not ditching the diet, not giving in to 'appetite' over hunger or need), is fine before bed if you are hungry. It is not an unsubstantiated opinion - it comes for dieticians. It can't be 'discounted' simply because I'm not morbidly obese, obese, or very overweight. It certainly fits with the ramadan example - they eat within (or under) their daily allowance, but at night, and still lose. And the 'experts' also say, that a glass of milk before bed (and this WAS the snack I was talking about) is BENEFICIAL - not too heavy on the tummy, and sleep promoting.

2. For those with health issues - diabetes, chronic pain, even insomnia - this can be very good advice. ANd I did make the point that I write coloured by my experience with chronic health issues. People like us often cannot eat a big meal at only certain times - we need to keep the intake smaller and spread out so there is no sudden drop.

3. I also said that this may be of help for those that are very active. You cannot do intense activity for 3 hours, and then continue to fast for another 12 hours (the time it takes ot come home from work, get to bed and sleep, with an evening sports-job) without gnawing hunger. Esp. when coupled with a health condition, it's bad news.

4. On a more personal note, I'm not raiding the fridge at 3am out of gluttony (

but you may want to go easy on giving in to your nocturnal activities like your 3am trips to the fridge

). I really don't WANT to get up and deal with my medical problem that STIPULATES I MUST EAT to take the meds I"m on. I also did say this - so I'm not sure how you took it that I'm just indulging 'appetite'. I would have to do this regardless of what weight category I fell into.

So, sorry the 'sage advice' is rejected because it doesn't fit the criteria I am living with - and I'm following doctors orders, dieticians orders, and my own knowledge of my body. I listen, but I can't try (well intentioned) advice that comes from people who offer it based only on their own experiences, and seemingly not taking into account what I have written. And I still say - for other people too, in a similar situation - that it IS ok to not follow a blanket rule (of eating at night) if it doesn't suit your particular circumstances.

I'm not saying everyone should do this - if it works for you to NOT eat at night, fantastic. ANd for many people, this is a golden rule that works super well. I am still within your mantra Blitz, that you have to find what works for you, for ultimate success.

Sorry if I have angered or offended -not my intent. I did feel unheard, so I want to be clear. It's sayonara to this thread for me now...look forward to discussing other things with you guys and sharing the weightloss journey

[Blitz]

Sigh, common guys! You are starting to get quite heated and we shouldn't be arguing - this is a discussion. In your heatedness, you forget my points:

Whose heated? Not me (well...a little fevered with this cold that I'm fighting )...I enjoy a good vigorous discussion even a debate. If I truly was upset over your posts I would have used my "evil powers" to zap you or your posts off the Forum! But I am a great believer in good exchange of ideas. Not a big fan of Voltaire but certainly agree with his principle to fight to the death for your right to express on opposing view.

I'm not forgetting your points at all. It is just that you keep moving them.
It's a bit like nailing down jelly. Every time I nail a point home you seem to slip away from it by ignoring the reply, making straw dogs, changing the premise of your argument (not arguing as such...but as in debating point), misrepresent what was said or change the topic altogether. I don't mind as such because I'm use to people doing this (modern schooling these days...logical debating has seem to gone out the window ). I'm very use to people arguing their cases like that (I'm one of the few people who has a welcome mat at my door for Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons...unfortunately they no longer come to my house...logical arguments are too hard for them too) so I kind of expect it really. Just thought that you should be aware of it.

Point one: Originally you weren't talking about healthy snacks, being within your calorie allowance...see above ie changing the premise of your argument.

Point two: Straw dog argument. Not the issue at hand...the original topic under discussion wasn't about those with special health issues. Even as such what you claim is true for all who are losing weight. The original point though is about eating at night not spreading food intake through out the day (which is what the experts are really advocating).

Point three: This is what I addressed in great detail. Unfortunately you seemed to have not bothered with it...see above ie ignoring the reply. I have given you good advice on how to manage it successfully but has fallen on deaf hears which of cause is your prerogative to do.

Point four: ...See above ie misrepresenting what is said or changing the topic altogether. No one has suggested that you are raiding the fridge out of gluttony. You have clearly said that it was out of hunger that you lead you to eat at ungodly hours of the night. It is my concern that poor and mismanaged eating habits during the day has lead to this behaviour. If you were eating properly during the day there is no way that you should be waking up by "with hunger pain I couldn't ignore". This is not a normal thing. My wife who in her youth was anorexic (hospitalised at one stage) said that it shouldn't happen at all. She said that the opposite should occur. Anorexics actually just want to sleep all the time because that way they don't have to deal with the hunger pains (another reason is they have no energy...because of low calorie intake).
Didn't you write this?

Awake at 3am with hunger pain. Ignored it...Then lay awake until 7am with hunger pain I couldn't ignore

And didn't you write this?

On a more personal note, I'm not raiding the fridge at 3am out of gluttony... I really don't WANT to get up and deal with my medical problem that STIPULATES I MUST EAT to take the meds I"m on. I also did say this - so I'm not sure how you took it that I'm just indulging 'appetite'. I would have to do this regardless of what weight category I fell into.

So which is true? Medical or appetite? I don't think you can have it both ways...since you are claiming one or the other.

You were not unheard. We heard you clearly, unfortunately you didn't like the response! Which is your every right to do so. You are totally free to accept any advice or reject it as you see fit. Hopefully others reading this thread may make choices different to the one you have chosen.

I just leave you with this thought. If you know so much...why isn't it working?

We are here for you.
Kim

[DD Diva]

Sigh, common guys! You are starting to get quite heated and we shouldn't be arguing - this is a discussion. In your heatedness, you forget my points:

Not here Chief, I'm not heated, frustrated at your comments which appear to have no consistency perhaps but that's about it.
I don't get bothered by people who make claims they can't substantiate, and even less by those who make excuses for bad eating behaviours on medical conditions!
But trying to pass this advice as justifiable to those who know (and have done) better, and/or are struggling to do the right thing by their bodies, is irresponsible and frustrating to say the least!

[JP1]

[Blitz]

George...the very picture of healthy living...not!

Kim

[JP1]

George...the very picture of healthy living...not!

Kim

George is a classic, I love the episode this pic is from..

[ganymede]

JP just strolled by to stoke the fire then he's off again!

[JP1]

!

[ganymede]

Thought this might help the fire....

[Blitz]

Now that JP has found that upload attachment tab - there's no stopping him!...or Shelley for that matter!

Kim

[äirly]

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